Introducing "Athlete's Journey - Winning On & Off The Field" a special podcast series looking at the financial journey of athletes through the eyes of some of Australia’s most influential sporting figures.

Hosted by Brent Read, episode 2 features Sam Ayoub & Daniel O'Loughlin, discussing the Player Manager's role in assisting, influencing, and guiding a player through their career both on and off the field.

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Hello and welcome to the second episode of Athletes Journey, Winning On and Off the Field, a special podcast series looking at the financial journey of athletes through the eyes of some of Australia's most influential sporting figures. I'm Brent Read and today I'm joined by respected player agents Sam Ayoub and Daniel O'Loughlin.

Welcome gents. Hi Brent. Hey Ready. How you doing? I'm good. I'm good. We might as well start with a bit of background on you two, on you, on you guys. Um, tell us how you got into, Sports, sports management, sports agency and where it began. I'll let the elder statesman go first, should I? Oh, we're starting with that line.

Okay. Um, my background's originally property. I worked in property for a long period of time.  Um, involved in sport and had mates that played league, et cetera, et cetera.  Um, So,  I sort of was researching how sports management was, you know, a growth industry in Europe and America and that sort of thing. I'd had a couple of chats to Jack Gibson at the time and, um, Jack suggested, you know, that a lot of these guys here don't get paid.

that sort of support and help and whatnot. And he sort of encouraged me to do it. So I helped a few of the boys out that I was close to, had a bit to do with, that's where it started really, had a bit to do with him there. And next thing I was getting calls from blokes suggesting that, that, uh, you know, Jack suggests they give me a call and, you know, I fiddled around with it for a couple of years and a couple of years after that, doing a lot for love and, uh, decided I might as well have a crack at it.

Yeah. So that's the background. I was at a bit of a crossroads, uh, in a good way. Um, I'd had a business in Dubai for some time. Um, my dad was quite ill at the time.  Um, the business in Dubai, part of the GFC was coming to an end. So I  took some time off to work or help my dad out. Um, and his then-partner. Um, so I moved back home with him for six months just to get him through the first part and I'd been already helping up helping a few mates of mine, uh, guys like Tony and Frank, uh, Nigel Vanana, just with some property investment advice, just general stuff. 

And, uh, very cliche, but one thing led to another, and here we are, 14 years later, I decided that It might be something of interest and uh, maybe I could make a difference similar to Sam and help some of these young men and that's how I'm sitting here today. Talk to us about how you guys uh, typically help athletes manage their finances through that journey.

Obviously they start on, generally start on not a lot of money and grow during their career. Give us an idea about how you help them. Manage that, that, that money that comes in that life. Yeah, so, look, we have a suite of service providers. Um, I like to use the analogy, we're a bit like a GP.  We know a bit about everything, but once we identify what help you need, we refer you to a specialist.

And that's the best way I can do it. Um, we also like to have, several in each category. Um, we want there to be an opportunity to, for players to find the right fit for them. And just because a particular mortgage broker, a buyer's agent, an accountant might fit one player. Um, so we advise them to meet with a couple.

And as always, of course, sometimes they have family, friends, their parents, et cetera. So that's normally a good  Very much the same. Um, to be honest, Daniel, it's, um,  it's funny how you become streetwise working in property. Um, my background there was with a company called Household Finance. You might remember them.

They, uh, they were sponsors of the Bulldogs when they won those three grand finals in the mid-eighties. And they also were sponsors of Hawthorne that won three grand finals. And so that back then they had a, um, a portfolio of branches, about 130 around Australia, wasn't internet and all that sort of stuff back then.

So I, uh, I was, uh, probably my role was to negotiate in and out of those leases and relocations and refurbishments and that sort of stuff. So it's amazing how much you sort of learn from that. I sort of, uh, converted that into, um, assisting players more so, try and encourage them to save and buy their first property or part of their contracts, negotiate and get advances on their contracts to use them as deposits.

Things were reasonably fluid. flexible back then unlike the current day where you need to get approval to get an advance on a contract to help a player. Back then you could just do that through the clubs and it was, they were all, they were all very conscious of wanting to do the same and help the players.

So getting advances on contracts wasn't difficult to get the players started. Can I ask you as agents, we all look at it from the outside and think the agent's primary role is to negotiate a good deal. Right. That's the starting point. The bit after that, that is making sure the players don't fritter that money away, right?

How, as an agent, whilst you get people to help you with that, how much responsibility do you take for that, that as well, to make sure your players don't,  because I'm sure there's examples. I think we had Jonathan Thurston on, he said when he initially started, I think he got a, he got most of his money put away and he was given an allowance.

That's uh, that's very true. Uh, unfortunately again, I'll, um. I'll be specific about the fact that we're not financial planners. So as Daniel said earlier, we do surround ourselves with good people, accountants, financial planners,  a network of agents in different areas to sort of help players. And so it's more about having a network. 

And we act as a conduit for that network, but encourage our players along the way to save because if there's money in their pockets, it burns a hole real quick. Yeah, I think, um, and JT's a great example. Um, you know, Sam's been on that journey with him.  The hardest part is, uh, let's be honest, we're dealing with young men here, and you can give them the most prudent,  the best advice, um, and they won't always take that advice.

So for me It's continually giving them the same message and then trying to create parameters that help them with that. So yeah, whether it's creating a savings account that someone else is a signatory on, so that they need a second signatory to get it out. It's not effectively that you or someone else can access that money.

It's just a barrier. To them having eight beers on a Friday and deciding they want to take out an extra thousand, etc, etc. So, they're little things like that. Um, for some players it clicks really early. Other players they get to 27, 28 and look around and go, Oh, Sam, Daniel. I get what you're saying now, and you frantically spend the last five years doing it.

It just depends on the individual. Well, when do you talk about the last five years? When do you start planning for the end of it? Because some careers don't last forever. They last a few years. Some last,  JT's a good example, 15 years. When do you start planning for life after 40? It varies on the individual again, Daniel, doesn't it?

It really does. It's when the penny drops with them. Um, we can, we can talk till we're hoarse, but it's when the penny drops with them. Um, and often they're dictated by their upbringing, uh, by their family surroundings, uh, by, you know, New wives, partners, girlfriends. Cultural as well. Very much. Sam would be very familiar.

Um, I think we're at 50 percent now, Pacific and Polynesian. We've always had a, a great representation of Indigenous athletes. Um, we have people of all races, you know, Lebanese, Anglo Australians, but culture is another big one. Each culture will have different expectations and family expectations, which can be a positive or a challenge.

Well, how do you, how do you juggle that? The cultural. challenges your face as well. You've got to tread carefully with some. You've got to tread very carefully. And do your best to learn and understand  the expectations and then while being respectful them also being able to have I feel a tough conversation.

Absolutely. Without crossing a line where you cause offense. In that manner, sorry, just on that, uh, you'll find we tend to have to structure their contracts at times to cater for a  percentage, whatever that may be, to go to their father or to their mother or to their brothers. So depending on what, uh,  nationality and heritage, some of them are meal tickets for their families.

Which as an agent, I would imagine  when you, your, your concerns with the individual rather than The wider net, well, you've got to take into account the wider network, but your primary concerns with the individual, right? So that must be a difficult, difficult line to walk. The other thing is, um, and, and, you know, let's address it.

It's a bit of an elephant in the room. Religion is another one within those cultures. Um, I have clients that make significant contributions on a monthly basis, just like they do to the tax office, just like they do to super to their church. Um, I was raised in a Catholic family. I've got no problem with any religion or a lack of religion.

That's irrelevant. But I do not have a problem sometimes in questioning  why are we making this donation on a regular basis? What is it for? Uh, that in itself can be a tough conversation, but sometimes it needs to be had. You know, I'm sure you've got many now that don't have a dollar to their name and they've been in the game for 10 years.

And a lot of that does go to it. a family and their churches and that sort of thing. So it is a difficult conversation to have, but it's got to be had at some stage. Is it hard not to take that personally, when you've managed someone for that long? And at the end of it, like you must feel a little bit of a sense of responsibility for that.

If a player at the end of his career has got, got no money, even though you might've been banging away at him for a decade to save some money, buy a house. Absolutely. I mean, um,  You've had it, there's no doubt, but you know, we get to, they get to the towards the end of their career and they're complaining about not having a house and not having property, but you'll find somewhere along the way that we either met with them, we met with their welfare, we met with their clubs and every opportunity and tried to put structures and, uh, you know, into place to help them, but they resisted that help and that assistance.

And at the end of the day, we sometimes get criticized for where they  are, but nobody knows the path that we took to help to prevent them from getting to where they are. Yeah. And Sam's been doing this a lot longer than me, so he'd have a lot of experience, but in my 14 years,  I'd say I've progressed. I used to lose sleep over it.

I'm not exaggerating because I would try so hard  and I got to a point where I realized, um, you know, you can lead the horse to water. Um, I still try. And, um, just recently, uh, one of our players who shall remain nameless, but has made significant money in the game, purchased his first home at 26.  And the relief for me, um,  I, I can't describe it cause he's a great fella, but he just made bad choices.

Um, a lot of these guys  gamble, um, you know, they have more air maxes than you can poke a stick at, um, and NBA singlets, but it was so relieving for me to see him get the first house. And ironically, um,  he's now talking about buying a second one. I can't change the fact that he would have literally And gross, obviously three  or 4 million before now, I can't change that, but I'm really glad that the pennies dropped.

And that's what you hope for in the end. But as Sam said, there will be players that you end up and they get to the end of that journey and they have very little to show for it. And yeah, sometimes you just have to realize that there was nothing more you could do. Well, as long as you know you made effort along the way, then there's not much you can do.

You've mentioned some of the financial challenges athletes face and you guys facing  with them. Can you sort of talk about a few of them? The other ones maybe that you haven't mentioned, I mean, obviously they, there's gambling issues. You said there's, there's families  that put pressure on, on athletes. You know, they make bad investments that you can't stop them making a case.

You've got to get advice from other people, right? Who aren't in your circle. If you don't mind, I'd love to chat about this one. And we alluded to it as we were chatting prior. Um, you know,  It's cycle. It's very secular. Sorry. Um, different things happen. So the three of us were talking about NFTs and crypto.

These are young men. Um, they have a lot of free time. Um, there are always guys that are probably a little bit more financially literate or more intelligent. There are guys that are less intelligent. That's society. That's not just football. If you put a group of young men from any age group together,  Industry in a room, although I'd say if they were all studying medicine at Sydney Uni, it'd be a little bit different, but a general, um, you know, cross section of society, um, and so there was, you know, 18 months ago, a number of, um, players, um, Started to want to invest in NFTs and crypto.

And it was literally like a snowball effect. A particular, uh, gentleman, uh, who's based in Dubai, who had this social media profile started this NFT collection. All of a sudden each player was posting it.  You know, I spoke to my players because it just kept popping up on my feed. And I walked them through, I did some research and said, look, these are the risks, et cetera, et cetera.

Long story short, they all got given pre access as I predicted. And they sold out immediately predominantly to, uh, footballers and, and, uh, musicians and entertainment people that are in Pacific of Polynesian descent. Cause it was sort of. became a community.  Um, though we're given, I think two NFTs for about 600 each, 1, 200 on average, our players spent that bought in, um, they were worth about four grand within the first week.

So they could have sold. I told a lot of them, sell one, keep one and see what happens. Most of them didn't. And effectively now they'd be worth less than 10.  So these are the kind of things, that's just one example. Um, there's constantly, you know, and I, there have been some great success stories, the boys, um, that have done YKTR and all of that, but for every one clothing label that doesn't make it, I'd say there's about,  You know, another nine that are attempted that don't, etc, etc.

And you would have seen plenty of these. So, yeah, it's the quick cash grab. Because footballers would be, athletes would be an attraction for that. They would, they would have people coming at them all the time. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, years back, we, we heard about a group of guys Uh, that, uh, invested into a property with a big developer at the time.

And, uh, I was anti all that sort of stuff, especially the off the plan type stuff. Um, and, uh, they sort of all lost a fair whack and, uh,  you know, it, it. It's society again though, isn't it? Yes, we just try to apply our, I suppose our general experience and, and there's a lot of factors that also govern them as well.

It's the, the drink, the drugs, the skirt in particular, potentially, and, um, and that wavers them away from their ambitions sometimes, unfortunately. Because as I said, they're, they're, they're, they, they would get  all sorts of things thrown at them and they wouldn't always run a point.  They're agents, would they?

So you can't be watching them 24 7, right? And every player will have influential people in their life. Some for a long period of time and some for a short period of time. Um, we all here would have had people that were in our life for a period that are no longer in. That's, that's just life. But, um, you know, I had a player who was due to settle on a property a couple of years ago.

Uh, everything was kosher. You know? We went to settlement and his savings was 30 grand short. And I said, what happened to the 30, 000? Oh, I've invested in a clothing label.  So we had to frantically beg the club for a prepayment. And as Sam said, that's not as easy as it once was with salary cap,  repercussions, etc.

Now we got the property deal done. But I didn't know that he'd, uh, invested in his clothing. Well, we had exactly the same situation more recently, but that was his, uh, partner had access to his account and was spending up pretty big. Uh, and those sorts of things are out of our control. At the end of the day, um, we try and help and guide them.

We're a conduit to getting them with financial planners that will more readily and, and more legally, um, take care of those responsibilities, uh, to some extent, and they copy us and keep us involved because we act as pseudo parents, pseudo family in most cases. I mean, uh, there's lots of stories about, you know,  where we sit with players.

Families and kids. And I suppose because of my age, I'll bring this up this time. Um, because of my age, I mean, I managed sort of eight, nine players now whose dads I managed and I'm going farther seven or eight of my players, kids. And so you develop  those sort of relationships and then they do start to trust you as well along the way.

So you've been in the game longer than Dan and Daniel, as you said, JT is one of your, the great success stories, right? I mean, you, you got him buying property when he was. Well, his first contract, uh, we got a contract advance and I, as I said, I bought a property in the unit, the unit came up and I bought it.

He still has that till today. And, uh, probably, look. You take great pride out of that, Sam. Mate, you get a lot of pride, a lot of satisfaction and, and you sort of, they sort of appreciate it now too. You know, like whether it's him or anybody else and a lot of others, you know. But again, don't want to name names, but I've had three or four recently where I've ensured that part of the first thing, it's a forced savings measure, if nothing else, buying property and forcing them to pay it, you know, and they become, they become more appreciative of the money they're earning, uh, rather than blowing it.

They know where it's going. Yeah. Well, one of the Daniel take great pride out of seeing a guy who may have started with nothing, and then the end of his career has got.  Property. A hundred percent. And, um, the one thing that I would say, um, you know, there's a perception that, you know, all of us agents, we're all against each other.

I I've got no problem in reaching out to guys like Sam, um, chimes, you know, Gabriella, there's a lot of good operators in the game. I've got a lot of experience and, um, you know, picking their brains. But at the end of the day,  getting these guys to understand, yes, you make some decent money.  But if you divide that over 65 years, because that's the general retirement age, you're only working at early 30s if you're lucky enough to get there.

So we've got to make that money work for us. And the player very aggressively  over that period to set up for hopefully the next chapter of their working lives. How, how can you give us an insight into how maybe your philosophies have changed? Financial management philosophies have changed over the years?

Like it sounds like property has always been a big thing for you, Sam, right? Well, it is. It's stable. It grows over time. I think you spoke about that earlier, uh, Daniel, where, where, uh, you know, you said they want to, They would look at having a million bucks and they'd want to see a greater return than a net eight percent, which compounded over a period of 10 years adds up to a lot more money than they would imagine.

Yeah. So like Sam,  I just don't think you can go wrong with property if you invest smartly, but if you are successful and start to advance beyond that, or if you're a player who's in the upper echelon, um,  I think  You know,  the scale of economy, we're never going to be NFL or the APL. But if you look abroad, a lot of, uh, athletes are becoming smarter investors and looking for an equity play versus just doing something for cash.

Um, if you look and again, our guys don't earn the money that the cricketers do, but Steve Smith's a great example where he has taken equity. In companies or startups versus just to cash to say, Hey, I'm an ambassador for koala mattresses. Um, so we're always looking at those opportunities. I think if there's something where a player can use their brand to get some equity, it's low risk.

And if they believe in it, so looking outside the traditional, uh, property and shares is always worthwhile. But doing that very prudently and diligently is, is also another way. Is that an area you see growing? 100%. So there's actually a couple of businesses, um, that have started that, um,  uh, forget the name of it, but there's a collection of athletes.

I think Michael Hooper, Andrew Bogart, Toby Greene,  I think, and it's something the NRL and  Sam, myself and other agents could look at, is potentially the bigger the pool of money, um, the more likely you can get opportunities and maybe at one stage down the line players could resource their funds together and look at opportunities going forward.

Well, I think the asset management fund that BPC, uh, uh, putting together and have put together at the moment, I think that's targeted, uh, at athletes and players and, and whatnot, uh, to a  conglomerate of them invest and not only them, but, uh, You know, people with financial influence invest in those sort of funds and together they make money.

So that's the intent of, uh, financial organizations like these, asset management companies. Yeah. Is there, is there a piece of advice that's resonated with you guys that you've been given or that you've given to, to  someone over the years that's really, you know, Stuck with you? Um, yeah, I, I, I think,  uh, the expression time is both your friend and enemy is really important.

So as footballers, they're conscious that they have a short time in the game. But Sam alluded to the 8% and the compound interest and time is also your friend. If you are patient and you invest well, money will continue to grow, as will your capital investment. Potentially, so don't always be looking for the quick fix and the quick buck.

I, uh, my father at an early age encouraged us, myself, my brother and myself too. He helped us with a bit of money and we put it into a property, did a little reno on it, turned it over. So we're very happy. I've always stuck with property to a great extent. I know there's much  wider, uh, avenues to invest money these days, but I find property solid.

It's there and it, uh, it, it it'll forever grow. It'll have its downturns, but you don't, you won't, they won't go wrong investing in property. So in that sense of you, your philosophy hasn't really changed. It hasn't changed greatly. No, other than for the fact that I do refer them to the right accountants, to the right financial planners, Uh, and that's probably changed.

What about you, Daniel? Is this? Yeah, no, I think I'm with Sam, um,  particularly if they can have a passive income post football, which is property provides, if you can have three or four rental properties and you've got at least 80 percent equity and own your own home, I think that's a realistic goal based on the current minimum wage, which is nearly, um, you know, In excess of 100, 000 when this CBA is agreed upon and um, if you can do that and hypothetically generate 80, a year in rental income, passive income, then all of a sudden 120,  150 job plus that 150, 000 job, sorry, plus that Means you can maintain a sort of a really good lifestyle that you were probably used to.

And you're not forced into picking a job based on just the income. You know, you hear about guys going and working in the mines.  That's, you know, pays well, but with footballers that have had multiple knee injuries and shoulder injuries, et cetera, it's hard yakka. So yeah, that, that would be my. Uh, best advice.

And if you get to a point where you have some, some funds that you want to diversify, then you can address that at the time. Does the, I mentioned before the pride you take out of saying guys in the career and they've, they've done well with their money. Have you got any great, can you share any great success, success stories or any,  and with that, even without naming names, but with.

Maybe players who you've taken great pleasure out of what they've been able to do. I wouldn't want to name any names, but yeah, you do like the personal rewards far outweigh anything you earn from those players over their careers. And you want to see them do well. There's players that I managed that are doing outstanding work and outstanding, have outstanding success presently.

And you just get pride of having an association with them at some stage during their career. I'd say. Exactly the same as Sam. We've got some really good success stories. Um, obviously Sam's been doing it a lot longer. So, you know, the majority of our players are in sort of the prime of their career. Um, but we've still had some really good success stories, but the other one that I'd allude to is, um, I have a player who, um, you know,  wouldn't leave a certain club, not because he didn't want to, he wasn't getting enough opportunities at the time, but he wanted to wait an additional year. 

To finish his degree,  um, because he was based in New Zealand. Obviously the club's pretty obvious. Um, and he didn't come to an Australian club until he finished his degree. And that I took a great deal in pride of because no matter what happens, he has a career post football, he's now a regular NRL player, he's, he's bought property,  but the short term pain of staying one extra year at the Warriors.

And allowing him to finish his degree will be worth.  10 times that post football because he has a career and he now is flourishing in his NRL career, but he was stuck behind a few, but it was a really good decision at the time to sit tight and get that degree in his back pocket, so to speak. Credit's got to go to clubs these days too.

Their welfare program, their education programs are far greater than they were, you know, 10, 15 years ago. So, and some of them do it far better than others and encourage their players too. To do further education, tertiary education allowances, we were talking about that earlier.  There can never, there should never be a  cap on what you can provide players to get further education.

And that's something that I'm strong about. That's a good note to finish on. Sam, Sam, you've given the The NRL, some advice like that, firing them up.  It's not the first time. Thanks, Sam. Thanks, Daniel. And thank you for joining us on Athlete's Journey, winning on and off the field. 

Thanks for having us. Thank you.