Introducing "Athlete's Journey - Winning On & Off The Field" a special podcast series looking at the financial journey of athletes through the eyes of some of Australia’s most influential sporting figures.

Hosted by Brent Read, episode 4 features Robbie Farah & James Whelan, discussing the financial journey of a professional athlete and how best to navigate the journey of building long-term wealth.

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Hello and welcome to the fourth episode of Athletes Journey, winning on and off the field, a special podcast series looking at the financial journey of athletes through the eyes of some of Australia's most influential sporting figures. I'm Brent Read and today I'm joined by James Whelan, Managing Director of Barclay Pierce Capital and Head of Wealth Management. 

Former senior or current senior jump rope champion and Robbie Farrah, West Tigers legend and assistant coach and director of events experience company 24/7. Welcome, Robbie. Thanks Brent. Hello guys. Hi Brent, how are you now? Good, good, good. Well, we should start off. Let's, let's talk about how you guys got into your careers.

I might start with you, James, because you know, Robbie's well known, isn't he? Starting with me. I'm the son of the son of an engineer. I grew up in humble beginnings. Now it's, I've got a degree in human resource management and industrial relations. I was going to head in that direction of managing people and taking an HR role.

Um, I was, uh, just sort of distracted by finance and sort of went into it. Next thing you know, you sort of, you know how to run a place, you know how to move a place, you know how to advise clients, you know the direction that you want it to work and, um, I've wound up, wound up here, sort of given the opportunity, um, over here after running, uh, what we call managed discretionary accounts for a certain amount of time for clients.

It's effectively running a company. running money on a discretionary basis. And now moved to, I was given the opportunity by Barclay Pierce to come and set up their asset management team and, and, and build that here. Just before we go to Robbie, give us an idea of what your actual role involves.

I imagine it's quite extensive, but you can just sum it up in a bite-size. Well, if you take, if you take an example of a day, so take, take an example of today where I start Um, I start with a management meeting, managing the team, any differences that, that are going on, um, operational changes that need to be made and where I'm heading with the project of building the asset management team, um, moving into clients, new client, client acquisitions, making sure the clients are friendly because clients are your entire business and then look at trade ideas, um, overseeing any of the corporate deals that we've got going on at the moment or any, any new ideas and innovations that we've gotten, just helping direct sort of that, that traffic where that's going.

And then so, and then now here's the, the, the podcast side of things, the promotion can sit here with, with one of the greats and talk about whatever it is that we're talking about now, which is all important for, for forgetting the name of the firm. And then in about an hour or so, I'll be heading up to the IMARC conference to mining conference and meeting with some companies that, that we've got set up as corporate clients and then maybe trying to, you know, Get a new, a few more corporate clients for that after that, then back just that's, that's the average day that I've sort of, sort of looking at everything to all things and trying to build this, build this as it sort of comes together.

Is that a good example of what it's all busy day? Robbie,  what are you Robbie?  Well, my love, your rugby league career, give us an idea about how it all kicked off. And I guess I was one of the lucky ones where, um, I got to live out my dream and, uh, dream from a very young, young age to grow up and play rugby league.

And, um, I was fortunate enough to do that and have a long career, I think. quite lucky in that fact, because a lot of players, I guess, for one reason or another, don't, um, get to not only play in a real, but have a career that lasts for, I think, 17 seasons like I did. So, uh, quite fortunate now, um, on the coaching staff of the Tigers as an assistant coach.

And as you mentioned, I think, um, I was about six or seven years ago now, started up 24/7 with my business partner, Jaya. So slowly been building that in the background and, and come on board, uh, in the last 12 or so months here with Barclay Piers Capital as a, um, as an ambassador and working alongside James to, um, you know, build this, asset management fund.

I know you recently, you've already covered your career. Well, I'd imagine you seem to me the sort of guy who always had an eye on his finances or, you know, you. Did an economics degree, I think. Yeah. Um, is that right? Yeah. Yeah, I obviously grew up, uh, youngest of, uh, five kids, four boys. Um, my dad, I guess, didn't come from much.

Um, migrated to this country, you know, without a single cent to his name. Couldn't speak, um, English and, um, drove a cab. So, I, I guess he wanted to give his kids a life that he, he never did. And, uh, for him, education was, um, vital. Um, and I guess it was always number one. So for me to to continue on my journey of wanting to be a rugby league player, one of the conditions of that was to make sure I did well in school and went to university and got a degree.

So, uh, yeah, completed my economics degree alongside, um, my rugby league career as it started. And, um, I think,  you know, in hindsight, look, I was never to know that I was going to be fortunate enough to play. Yeah, footy. So, um, a lot of careers do get cut short, whether it be through injury or not getting another contract or so, you know, the fact that, uh, I was able to study in the background and, and have that degree to my name, I think, uh, held me in good stead.

And as you said, financially, I think I always had one eye on, on making sure I set myself up so, um, I could be comfortable.  You know, once I retire because I think the trap that many athletes fall into is, um, it's an afterthought. I think, you know, you, as a kid, you come out of school and you, you finally fall into this stupid amount of money playing rugby league and or whatever sport and, uh, you think it's going to last forever.

Um, but then you get to the age of 30 or 35 and, and your career is over and then, um, and then it's an afterthought, afterthought as to what you're going to do next or how have you set yourself up financially. What about you, James? Were you always the sort of kid who counted his pennies and had a piggy bank, or was that your own money?

I was always good at counting. I was always good at counting the money and good at putting it away. I was never good at spending the money. Um, I always sort of had that little hesitation, especially when things are actually important to you. I had great difficulty with that. Um, where I sort of fell into this side as well is that I sort of naturally found that, So the old man and mom would have sort of shares scattered around all over the place in different places and I, I had a knack for being able to just tie it all together into one.

It was the original CommSec accounts that were back then and being able to talk to Ops and getting everything together at that stage, just organizing things for them at that.  I've actually not.  I've already told that story before. I think that's probably why I'm doing what I'm doing, if that's actually what I asked.

But that was, that was just sort of, it was just a fascination, fascination for the way that the industry worked and putting things together, making things easy for people. And same thing, did a university degree and, oh, you've mentioned it before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went into that, believe it or not, it was actually, Um, one of the most enjoyable things I ever did was, I really love working behind the bar.

I used to work behind the bar at an RSL, talking to people about things, learning things and being a sponge and learning what you can. Also being the only person in the bar who's making money and not spending it and losing it was always very handy for me too. Well, imagine you've got to be able to listen in your job, right?

As well as communicate, but listening is really important. Yeah, and picking out the little intonations of what people are talking about as well. Especially, you know, you're either trying to figure out if someone's about to rob you or, you Or they're too drunk to serve, it's a difficult, you know, this is interesting relationships and making huge relationships, making sure that making sure that service relationship is there to believe it was my, my beautiful wife, my first wife, my current wife,  my beautiful wife, Michelle, who said, well, Um, you either keep doing this and I won't be here or you go and get a real job and the real job.

So hopefully I'd be the CEO of Paramount Leagues now, I think if I stuck at it, but, um, no, the real job, it had to be something in finance,  still pouring beers somewhere like that. But, uh, no, and the, and the real job was going into finance and that sort of, that was the decision that I made of going and putting a suit on and going to the real thing.

What about you, Robbie? Obviously. Yeah. Absolutely. You mentioned you were doing that university green. It was a non negotiable with your dad, but juggling that with a rugby league career, that's tough, right?  There's a lot of demands on you  in the NRL. How did you, did it take you longer than it would not like how much?

Yeah. Yeah. It took me, uh, about eight odd years to be honest. I did my first year full time or going into uni. I was at a campus at Sydney Uni and, uh, but then I went into full time rugby league. So, uh, I went back to doing uni part time and I'd, I'd go into class and, um, and it's quite hard. You're, you know, you're 20, you're 21.

Um, you get a day off from, from training and the last thing you want to do is, is go into campus, sit in a lecture,  uh, for your economics degree. But, um, that was sort of, um, hard to motivate myself to do that. Um, and then I actually deferred for a couple of years. I'd had enough. I thought of, I sort of got to a point in my career where I thought, okay, well, I'm going to make a good fist of this.

I thought I might not need this uni degree. And so I just, I stopped. I just said, I'm not going to do it. I was about halfway through. And then, um, it was actually the club, um, at the time that, that pushed me back into it. Uh, obviously the NRL, um, encourages players to Um, you know, study or have some sort of apprenticeship or, or certification off the field.

And, uh, there's a lot of NRL grants as well, education grants. And, uh, the club said to me, look, you're halfway through it. You know, there's an education grant in there. They can, you know, look after half of your uni fees. You know, why don't you just go back and complete your degree? And, um, yeah, I thought, you know what, you know, I may as well.

So, and the rest of my degree actually did by correspondence, which for me was a lot easier because. Uh, instead of having to travel into to uni and physically go sit in a lecture. It was something I could do in my own time at home. Uh, just get online. Everything is online these days. And, um, I'm, I'm quite a quick learner.

I can teach myself things quite quickly. And, um, I think I found that easier just to, To learn online, uh, and in the end, I think I end up graduating in about, uh, I think it was 2011. I graduated and having my parents at my graduation, I think they were happier than I was to be honest. Um, yeah, look, it's a, it's a great achievement.

And I think, uh, for myself, you know, when you meet people on the street or, uh, and you, They know you're a footy player, but then you tell them you got a uni degree. They're actually quite surprised by it. So I'm actually quite proud of the fact that, um, you know, it does surprise people that, uh, you know, there are some smart footy players out there and, and I guess, um, yeah, I'm, I'm pretty proud of that.

You were making a lot of money in your career, more than, I shouldn't say that more than most kids when they're 20, 21, 22 compared to, compared to the money they make these days. I look, I wasn't really, to be honest, I tell the young boys these days where, you know, Early in my career, I wasn't on a lot of money.

My first NRL contract was 36, 000, which was minimum wage. And we actually won the grand final the year after. And, uh, so I was on, I was on minimum wage plus match payments. So you used to get a match payment, win or loss, whether you won or you'd get, I think it was like 3, 000 or 1, 000. So, um, decent money as  for my age at the time.

Um, but it wasn't until I got my next big contract where So what used to happen in, in, in league was you'd be on a low base with incentives, so match payments, but my first contract where I wasn't on match payments, I thought, okay, well, they're expecting me to play every game now. So I knew I was, uh, uh, automatic selection sort of thing.

And that's when I sort of finally knew, uh, um, I'd made it. And then obviously my career progressed from that and your, your contract goes up and, um, Towards the back end of my career, I started to earn really good money, but, um, I think for me, from an early age, it wasn't the money I was earning, but what I could do, you know, with that money.

I was going to say that. Was it something you directed your money into at an early age? Yeah, my first contract. Yeah, yeah. My first contract, I bought an apartment, uh, an apartment, which I still got. That was my first property. Um, so I was, I was always really interested in property. Um, that was one of my, and it was something that really interested me from a very young age.

I think, um, Maybe it came from my, my father and I think the old, um, can I say world mentality? 

In terms of investments is my, my dad always said, you know, yeah, bricks and mortar, like, yeah, have something you can physically, you know, see. And having, you know, obviously there's a lot of different investments out there, but he was always big on, on property. Um, and that was something I loved. I used to research different areas and, um, different investments.

And yeah, so my first property was a, an apartment, which I bought as soon as I signed my first contract, bought an apartment in Annandale, uh, which I still have. So, um, and then from there I bought other properties, did a couple of developments. So the whole development side interested me and, and that became a hobby. 

away from footy, which, which was really good. Um, you know, bought a, bought a, a house block land, which I, I, um, bulldozed and built a duplex on there. So to see it actually being built from the ground up and being part of that process was, was quite interesting and, um, quite fascinating. And that's something I really enjoyed.

So yeah, property was the big one for me. And then, um, obviously along the way, there's different businesses, different investments, shares, things like that. But I always,  I always wanted to try and make my money work for me. And, um, And I will probably get to it later, but you know, how I, um, or what, what did I want to achieve out of that was, you know, I wanted to make sure that when I retired from footy, whenever that was going to be, was  I wanted to make sure that  I didn't have to work if I didn't want to, or I wanted to, well, I wanted to work with what I wanted to do.

I dictated that I didn't have to go work for money or because I was going to retire and I had X amount of dollars on a mortgage. And I had to go in this money to pay it off. Um, I want it to be comfortable. Once I retired into make my own choices and I think through my financial decisions early in my career, I was able to do that.

Well, I am able to do that. James, Robbie touched on his dad then as it sounds like a big influence on his financial journey. Who, who sort of dictated or influenced you on your journey? Uh, yeah, it, it, that, that was more the influence on my engineering and sort of who I am as a person, but very close to my father, uh, in, in all regards, and we still speak almost every day.

Um, and that's, that conducts the way that I conduct myself in business, which is great, but in finance, it was actually the first, the first few. Mentors that I had coming into the first job that I had, the first job that I had was for 30, 000 actually, Robert. So I think I got you by six. Um, as a junior assistant to an assistant, it was one of the senior guys, um, the head of the desk who said, He lived through the 87 crash.

Um, when everyone got, everyone got done rolled in that particular thing, a lot of jobs lost at that time. Um, even though the market was actually up that year, can you believe it? Start to finish? No one ever, no one ever knows that.  He, he said, the way that I survived 87 when I was about your age was I knew everything. 

And it actually sort of relates to something that Billy Joel actually says the same thing as a musician. He says, the way to survive in this industry, don't just know how to play piano and sing. Know how to do the tech, work the boards, work the lighting, work the and know how to do all of the stuff start to finish.

The same thing in finance does as well. I think a better advisor And a better, a better manager of people and just a better portfolio manager is someone who knows all of the back to front and knows all the people who do these things and why these things actually work the way that they do. I see a lot of advisors  and they sit at the front end and they think, Oh, I just know, I know this little part of the part of the pie.

You don't have to be an expert at all this stuff. You just have to know that it's there and respect why it is all there and probably be nice to the people who are there as well. Because you see some guys and they can't.  You can't help people if all you know is your little patch, if all you know is, okay, if this account is working, something is wrong, someone asks you why, why is this particular thing off and you have to then go and wait a three day answer to get something from the back when it's something you probably could have known.

That has been the best advice for me and that's probably why I've managed to survive in this thing from the front to the back. Always managed to take, take notes. It's a great piece of advice. Take notes and learn how everything works in the front to the back. Well, that probably crosses over, Robbie. What about the best bit of advice you've received?

I know we've had Sam on here as your agent for a long time. Um, you know, he spoke about the advice he gave to, to.  athletes we looked after and I imagine, you know, you spoke about your dad, but I imagine Sam probably played a significant, was a significant influence on how you spent your money as well. But is there any piece of advice  that sticks with you or resonates with you all these years later?

Um, yeah, obviously Sam was a big influence. My three brothers are three older brothers. Um, so I did a fair bit with them as well. Um, the biggest thing for me, and it's something I tell athletes now when I speak to them is, is just to have a plan, um, and be proactive with it. A lot of athletes, as I said, we'll wait until They get to the back end of their career and then try to come up with a plan on what they want to do or, um, but by then it's, you almost missed the boat a little bit.

I think, you know, from early on, have a plan, have a goal on what you want to achieve from your career financially, where you want to set yourself up for when you're retiring. And my, I still remember as when I started my career, you know, I had a plan where, you know, I wanted to have two or three properties, uh, Uh, paid off or come to where so that I could retire and have that investment or that that income coming in so that as I said, I didn't have the burden of, okay, well, what am I going to do next or I'm under pressure here.

So that was my goal. So, you know, have a goal early, have a plan and put that plan in place from a very young age. So as you were, we could talk about that because, you know, setting financial goals. Um, or financial plans and then the market might dip or, or property prices might drop. Like how,  sometimes it's difficult to stick to that plan. 

Can you give us some advice on when that hits you, when, when, you know, circumstances change and There's, yeah, there's a way and this might, this might sort of answer something that, that we've talked about a little bit later. But first off, everyone's plan is different. And that's, that's the thing that you need to be able to define is exactly sort of where you want to be.

And the earlier you start that process is better. Absolutely the best time to, to, to do it. There's, there's two, what is it? The two, two times to plant a tree is 20 years ago. And today, you know, that sounds cliche, but it's very true when it comes to your financial future. Amazingly, talking about footballers in this regard, most of the people that I would advise and have, I've advised in my career, have been around that 50 or 60 year mark.

Um, okay, you know, I've been sitting in a super fund for this long, and now I wanna be able to control it myself. What do I do? And the outlook is, I mean.  You know, you will, you'll be dying at a certain time on average, anywhere between 75 and 85, maybe 90 if you get there. So this is your plan. It has to be 40.

With a footballer, putting a plan together and just going, here's what are you making, like 100, 120, 200k or whatever in your first few years. Right. Something like that. Well, nowadays I think the minimum wage is about 120 a year. Right, the average wage is 400. That's, that's, that's you needing to start the plan at the age of maybe 18 or 19.

You need a plan that's  To the maths on that, like, you've got to start talking about an 80 year plan. The kids that are playing football today, provided nothing happens, they're probably going to live until they're a hundred.  So  that's where your plan needs to take on. Um, the idea with that, if you're starting to think in that regard, you need two things that you really should be looking at.

First off, something that isn't going to be worried about chopping or changing too much at a time. If you've got a plan and you're 20 and you need to think, okay, I'm going to retire at a hundred. Imagine that sort of comfort that you've got, as opposed to someone who comes to me when they're 60. going, okay, what do I do for my retirement?

Thinking, well, you're in a bit of a spot potentially because we needed to have this conversation 40 years ago. I think the challenge with athletes though is, you know, you don't get to work to your 65 like general society. Um, and you'll be on, they'll be on, uh, an inflated amount of money. So it might be half a million dollars or a million dollars.

Yeah. Then all of a sudden when they retire,  Yeah, that might come right back. So, you know, how do they, how do you deal with that, that change in income or having a plan in place so that, so that you have some sort of a residual passive, passive income that's coming into it. Making money work for you. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's a thousand ways of doing it. You know, you've got your property, you've got your income shares, you've got your, your different areas that you can put it into. Being able to plan that when you're 18 is a much better idea than planning it two days before you hurt yourself.

That's right. That's what I was speaking about is starting early and having that plan, being proactive with it. And that was something I was fortunate enough to do, but a lot of footy players don't actually think about that until it's too late. You know, they obviously get caught up in the, the hype of it all and the fame and the glamour and the glitz and you've got your friends.

leeching off you and you're spending money and a lot of them go down that path because it is hard. There's a lot of temptation there when you you're out of school and then all of a sudden you've got three, four, five hundred thousand dollars. And you're on top of the world, so you do get distracted by those things, but I think the ones that can, um, I guess, you know, keep their feet on the ground and have that plan in place from a very young age, can do really well for themselves.

Yeah, and just knowing that they've got that comfort  that's there, that if something does go wrong, or you know, when your career actually does end, that you're going to be okay.  And things do go wrong, I've made bad investments. You know, not every investment is going to be a good investment, but no,  they can't.

And so that's sort of why you need, well, that's why I need as well. Yeah. I, my, my property skills are not amazing. I've got certain skills in certain areas. I've sort of got this theory. If you're really good at something, be really good at that. Don't try and be really good at too many other things. Don't spread yourself too thin.

Because you'll be awful at everything. Um, I'm not a footballer. I'm not going to go and play football. Um, but I am, you know, I'm, I'm this guy. I'm a portfolio manager here and I'm actually quite good at that. When it comes to property, I'm going to talk to a property guy. I've got, I've got one or two really good property guys that I lean on there.

One is an amazing guy picking out some, some areas and he's great. And another guy is, is the best just immediate value of anything that I've ever known. That's over, that's under. He's just that guy. Keep those guys close to you. 'cause they're , they're invaluable. Mm. The same way with, uh, get a good, get a good portfolio manager.

Um, get someone who's, who's very good with, with income. Get someone who's very good with, with alternative investments as well. And then you, you've got yourself a mix. You've got a little team around you that's actually gonna help you. So that way you've got the freedom to go and play football. Mm. You've got the freedom to go and play whatever it is that you wanna do. 

Mm. Without having that sitting in the back of your mind thinking that if something happens to me, I'm stuffed.  I, I dunno if I don't as, as a professional athlete, would you rather play. Would you rather play with that little nagging thought thick in?  If something goes wrong, then I'm going to have to think about getting another job or would you rather play with the sort of freedom that you'd want?

Yeah, yeah.  Are you actively talking to young players, Robbie? Do you do pull them aside? Because you're obviously intimately involved with the Tigers now. You're an assistant coach there. A lot of young kids at that club at the moment. Do you  find yourself pulling them aside? Guys aside and saying, mate, I've just seen you bought a flash pair of shoes or a new car, just be careful with what you're doing with your money.

Yeah, definitely. I think that's  part of being a coach. Not only is  the advice you give on the field, but also off the field.  And as James was saying, if you're comfortable off the field, I think that translates into. Performances on the field too. So, um, yeah, I'm always, I guess, speaking about my experiences.

I think a lot of the boys, um, know that, um, you know, I invested in property and things like that. They'll sometimes will come to me and ask questions as well about, you know, what do I look for when I want to invest or whatever it may be. So, um, I try and, I guess, um, without knowing their situation too much or going into,  um, you know, the X's and O's of it or how much are you earning and things like that, because that's none of my business.

But I guess just speaking about my experiences and what I did, um, and just making sure, as I said, they're thinking about it from a very young, just getting in their mind, uh, what they need to do. Um, to try and set themselves up instead of just, I guess, just changing the narrative around, um, yeah, athletes and, and what the focus is there when you do get thrown into this, um, stupid amount of money at a very young age.

What about this idea of early in your career and later in your career? And we look at it from a football's point of view and also James's point of view. I'm interested in James's point of view because I'm towards the end of my career. So I'm 53 looking towards the end. Um, how does, how do things change? 

Managing a portfolio at the start of its career and towards the end of your career. Uh, myself, sort of, if I was talking about being a portfolio manager in this one, I would say that I have definitely stopped looking at it. The expression, stop touching it, is uh, is, is. I touch mine all the time. Stop touching it.

You realize it, it used to be a thing you see in the papers you see in Bloomberg, um, that, You know, there's that, that there's some sort of thing going on in the bond mode. Oh my God, I need to react. I need to react. Chances are maybe 5% of the time you need to do something, and even then it's gonna be a very small tweak.

It took me a long time to realize that that's what it's, I realized that I was going, this has gotta change. We need to do this. So we've gone into European banks, oh my God, now something's happening and we need to change everything around. Stop. Doing things most of the time, have a nice, simple 60, 40 portfolio.

If something big like last year is going to happen where, you know, the bonds are going to come off, reduce your bond size a little bit. These big swinging moves is where it is, where you do it  quick changing. Oh, something's happened to CBA. I need to be out of that. Or I've got a basket full of small speculative mining stocks that don't go anywhere that have all been recommended to me by a mate at the pub.

That's an awful portfolio. I see that all the time, but it's just big, Own the market. The market guilty, guilty as charged. We all are. We all are. You should see mine toxic as well. I mean, the, the guy that cuts grass for a living always has the longest lawn . Um, so, but it, that, that's what it's just stop mucking around with it.

Make sure you've got what you want. Own it and own it for a very long time. What about you, Robbie? Your start career in the end? I.  You, as you said, always had a focus on, you know, making sure your money worked here eventually. But young footballers now, do you see them at the start of their careers, they get some money, they go a bit wild with it, and then they almost don't look at the end? 

Yeah, I think that's, you know, what I spoke about earlier and for me, it didn't really change much because I was fortunate from a very young age that I, um, I had a plan in place and, uh, Did you take more interest towards the end? Did you find? Did you start? Um, not really. I think it was different for me because, um, and I think I sit with athletes where, you know, that, you know, Uh, it does change for them.

Their priorities change because, you know, they'll be young and I guess a little bit selfish. They're only worried about themselves and enjoying themselves. But then I guess that develops into, you know, whether it's getting married, having kids. So then it becomes about, okay, well, I need to look after my kids and, and set my family up.

Um, so they're looking for that big contract at the end of their career where, where they can do that and, and set themselves up financially. But, uh, yeah, for myself, you know, I was, I don't have kids. I was never married. I, I haven't been married. Um, so still time, probably still time, mate. Yeah, there's still time.

But, um, but I, what in what I'm saying is though my priorities through my career never changed. Um, I, I had that, I had that goal from the start where I wanted to, you know, have, whether it was one or two. Two or three properties paid off at the end of my career so that the day I retired, I wasn't immediately thinking, oh crap, what do I need to do next to pay off my mortgages?

Um, so I wanted to be comfortable and have that plan in place. And, um, that was quite constant through my career. Didn't really change much to be honest. It's interesting that, you know, we've got the question, how do you know when you've made it financially? I'm intrigued as to the differing viewpoints. So how do you think, how  How do you know when you've made it financially thinking?

James, what about you?  Well, for me, as I just said there, um, the day I retired, I didn't have to go to work if I didn't want to. Um,  and I don't say that, um,  yeah, flippantly or whatever. But, um, and obviously I was 35 when I retired. So,  I needed to work. Um, we didn't need you Rob, you could have played golf.

Yeah, no, but you need to keep your mind ticking over and keep, and you know, have a purpose and, and, and find another thing that motivates you because obviously footy was all I knew my whole life. So, but at the same time, I, um, you know, you see it all the time where, uh, a footy player retires and then they're on a job site, you know, laying bricks a couple of weeks later.

And you know, for me, as I, as I said, right at the start of this, this show was, um,  I wanted to do what I wanted to do with my work. Um, it was always, I wanted to have that choice and that flexibility to  work when I wanted to. Didn't work if I didn't have to, if I wanted to get on a plane and, um, you know, go over to Europe and watch my beloved Liverpool play.

I could, I could do that. I had that freedom to do that. So for me, um, to answer the question, how I knew when I made it financially was when I knew I had that freedom to, to enjoy my life and not be, I guess, suffocated by, um, having to work,  um, just to make ends meet.  How about you, Jay? I think I, uh, you and I have a different sort of look at work, um, because I didn't spend 16 years running headlong into front rowers.

I think that I, I, it's easy to step away from that and think, okay, now I'm not going to work. I think that if I didn't work for a while, I'd go absolutely ridiculous. And I like the idea of having to go in and do something and having to go in and, and, and having that. That's just me. But the idea is that there are two different people with completely different ideas.

But again, what I was saying, I just wanted that flexibility because as an athlete, um, your life is so structured, you live a structured life for so long where you're told where to be and what to do and what to eat and you need this much sleep and whatever. So, so when I retired, I wanted the flexibility and freedom to, to enjoy my life if I wanted to, I still wanted to work and I still have to work.

Yeah,  I can choose when.  Do and you don't. Yeah, the flexibility was a really big thing for me. Yeah, I see what you meant. My mind is, uh,  the idea with me is being able to spend some time with the family and things like that. I've got very, very small ones down on the farm, have a look at the cows. Um, th those very, very small things or, or for me it's, um, how do I know I've made it financially is when I can.

Is when I can,  I'm sitting just somewhere and there's nothing going through my head and that's, and that's it, you know, that everything is sort of behind you and backed up spending time with the girls. Um, you know, potentially going to the Olympics for my,  to watch the jump rope up there. And my daughter who's, who's, who's quite skilled at it, that sort of stuff, taking the time of going, doing that.

If you can do that, then you can't. Having to work, having to work. Until I'm well and truly past the age where I, where I'd want to be working, that's not, that's not a win at all for me. How will you aspire to help people in their retirement and financially? Is that, is that the goal you set for them to be able to?

Theoretically, theoretically, it should be. However, everyone's got a different idea of what that is. end goal should be. For some people, for some people, a win is, is like, like what I said, very simple sort of, you know, I get some time on the farm a few, a few weeks out of the year and I can, I can make a call and, and, you know, I can maybe shave off a Thursday afternoon to go and play golf with some clients or something like that.

That's, that's sort of a win for me. And where I'm in, where I'm getting to for clients, a lot of the clients, a win for them is I want to have a big house somewhere in, in the Whitsundays. It's like, okay, well, we need to sort of tweak how we're going to go with that for other people. And it's very sort of simple thing.

It's just like, I wanted to sell this particular thing and just move up to, to this other very small thing that's up there. That's very nice, sort of humble for your guys, Robbie, that  a lot of them would be.  You know, some of them would be, I want the house that's in Mallorca, or I want to get a Lamborghini.

Okay, great. We'll get a loan and get a Lamborghini tomorrow. Great.  What happens after that? I don't know.  Um, everyone's got that different goal and then putting that team around you to actually try and help there and get that plan to that goal. Is sort of now that's the, that's the hard part and that's where I come in.

I suppose the simple one is everyone's goal is to be happy, right? Happy and financially comfortable, it helps you to be a little bit happier in retirement. Usually I would, but I've met a lot of people who seems like their goal is to be very much unhappy. I think that maybe there's a little bit more time on, a little bit more time outside looking at cows would probably help that situation, but yeah.

Okay, let's finish with a bit of financial advice or a bit of life advice. Give, give us one snippet of advice that you, you would give to young athletes, young athletes. Um, I guess young people in general, um,  as I said, be proactive, start early, um, and I think diversify, um, as I said, I've made bad investments, I've made good ones, uh, but I think if, if you've got that diversity across the market, you mentioned the bad investments before.

Can you give us an example?  Maybe you don't want to delve into it, but is there an advantage of something, an example, sorry, of something maybe you did that you look back on now and go, um, man, that wasn't smart. Yeah.  Oh, geez, whether it be like a certain property, which, you know, I might have had a decision where I could buy this one or that one and then in hindsight, I look back just geez, if I bought the other one, I would have bloody doubled my money and this one, I've lost money or you know, uh, a bad, um, or share, like you said, share tips.

We've all had shared tips before, you know, that you, but you just trade you like, um, What I listen to that, uh, or, you know, business, you know, I've been involved in, in different businesses, you know, I owned a restaurant back in the day. At the moment, I've got a Pilates studio, a gym. I got 247, which I, um, 247 is going really well.

The Pilates studio is going really well. The gym, not so great because we bought the gym. Um, and at the start, we're really hands on because I wasn't working. Um, as a coach. But now that I'm back working full time as a coach, I'm not as hands on with the business and that's started going backwards. So I looked at that thing.

Oh, geez. Like, I wish I didn't go into it. Um,  so yeah, as I said, like, you can't win them all. You can't win them all. But I think as long as, um,  uh, you've, you've got the intention and the mindset. Um, so I guess yeah. You know, I guess diversify in different areas. Um, uh, uh, and look, as long as you're thinking that way, as long as you've got the thought process where you're trying to set yourself up, you're trying to get yourself financially comfortable, like we spoke about, um,  you'll make more good decisions than you would bad.

What about you, James, some advice? You are the end result of the six people you surround yourself with. And you, uh, of all the things that you get a choice to do in this life, you don't always get to choose. You don't get to choose your family. You very rarely get to choose the people that you work with.

You get to actually choose the people that you surround yourself with. They, the idea of, of who you can, who you choose to be, to be those people is pretty important one that you have for the rest of your life. Surround yourself with good people, treat them well. Um, always be there for them, listen to them when they give you advice and at that same stage, don't always just follow them blindly on these things, but that the six people that I've that I've surrounded myself with are sort of very important to me and that's that's sort of where you go and in all decisions as well.

The advice that you get financially and in, in  professionally,  it's, it's, you can't do it alone. You can't do it alone. You said that. And, and like, as you said that I'm nodding because you're a hundred percent right. Like, um,  you know, I am where I am today  because of those people around me. I did surround myself with good people.

I was fortunate enough to have, you know, my older brothers and, and, and good friends and that network around me where, um, you know, they support you, they guide you, they give you good advice. They want what's best for you too. And it's not always the case.  I've seen so many times where people surround themselves with bad people and, um, they lead them down the wrong path.

So yeah, I really like that one. Yeah. What's your advice for that? We've just briefly, we'll talk, we've mentioned it before, the, uh, the random share tip you get occasionally. What's your advice for people? Because we all get them. Always run it through. Always  run it through. Yeah. Yeah. What you're prepared to lose is one of these things.

Yeah. Um, and it, You know, if you have to do something, here's, here's the two things. First off, always run it through a filter of someone who can, who knows what they're talking about on these things. So send it, send it to me, send it to Robbie, send it to, send it to someone who can just go, I've got this little scanning sort of filter of people who just go, Sort of a very good network of people who just say, no, that's, that's a piece of crap or actually it's not so bad.

It's very interesting. I'm going to get into it. The other one is the biggest thing with financial and sort of giving away some of the, some of the dark arts of, of the portfolio management system. The biggest secret is risk positioning, position sizing. Is going to save your life more times than it will hurt you.

If it's think about the risks that's there. Think about how much you're prepared to lose. Like you just said, it's no joke. I mean, that's a punt taking on some of this. You just go, you know what? I'm prepared to lose half a percent of my entire portfolio on this thing that someone's just said, good. And then it's there.

And if it goes away, it goes away. The chances are  the return that you're going to make on it is going to be significant, but you've got to think about the other side too. Position sizing is very important. I think that's the hardest thing for your average. But I, I've got farmed off some of my super and I dabble in the share market and the hardest thing is knowing when to sell.

Ah, yes. It's easy to know when to buy, right? Well, it's easy to buy, but knowing wh when to cut your losses and get out and when to take your profits and get out, that I reckon's the hardest thing. Well, for your average, can you believe it? We actually did say that. Have, have a plan was part of it, not only with the career, but every single investment that you make.

You have to have an exit strategy on either direction too. So when you go into one of these things, it's a small, it's small stocks and big as well. You say at this point, it's because you know why it is, you're going to get into it. And therefore, you know that if it drops through here, maybe I need to exit, or if it drops through there, I'm not exiting.

I'm going to hold this thing for dear life. That's the plan. That's still, it's, there's both valid position sizing. As long as position sizing is good, both of those ideas is fine. But then your exit has to be. Set as well on the top side. So once this is hit, once usually, once they discover copper in Argentina or wherever the damn thing is, then this is where I'm going to exit and it's going to be at this price and that's your plan.

You stick to it and it's fantastic. And then don't look at it again  as it triples up to that. Sound advice. So sage advice, James, and thanks for joining us, uh, on our pledge journey, winning on and off the field. Thanks, Robbie. Thanks, James. We'll be back soon.