Introducing "Athlete's Journey - Winning On & Off The Field" a special podcast series looking at the financial journey of athletes through the eyes of some of Australia’s most influential sporting figures.

Hosted by Brent Read, episode 1 features Johnathan Thurston AM and Michael Long, discussing their financial journey and sharing the wisdom that helped them build a successful off-the-field lifestyle.

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Hello and welcome to the first episode of Athlete's Journey, winning on and off the field, a special podcast series looking at the financial journey of athletes through the eyes of some of this country's most influential sporting figures. I'm Brent Read and today we're joined by North Queensland and Queensland Maroon Rugby League legend, Jonathan Thurston and Essendon AFL icon, Michael Long.

Welcome, fellas. Thanks, Thanks Ready. Let's start nice and simple. Take us into your background. How did you get into rugby league JT? Um, yeah, so my mum's one of 13. Uh, she's got nine brothers and, uh, three sisters. So, uh, growing up as a kid, uh, we played footy. Dad played a little bit of local footy as well.

So, uh, rugby league was, very prominent in our household growing up. So it all started, you know, when I was four or five, six years of age. So yeah, that's how I got into it. What about you, Michael, AFL? Yeah, all, um, families in Darwin, um, my dad grew up on the Tiwi Islands as a kid. Um, so footy's always been in our house, household.

So it's seven boys, two girls, uh, dad, coach, um, he's a bit of a local legend up there, dad. So we had no choice as a kid growing up the St. Mary's football club. You had to play for the mighty Greening goal. Um, and dad, uh, obviously had grown up on the Tiwi Island. So there was a lot of Tiwi people who came in by plane.

Dad used to fly himself in before they moved to Darwin. Um, but dad was always loyal, passionate, uh, and he coached the St. Mary's football club. Um, he, um, he coached in 1974, but the cyclone came, but. Uh, obviously that year was canceled and then, um, yeah, so it's probably, um, uh, I think, um, from a family we've played about a thousand games collectively, um, and then there's collectively with all the boys, we, we played in about 44 premierships, uh, collectively over that time.

But, um, yeah, football was always in the blood. St. Mary's Football Club was, um, pretty important because it was about community. And back in those days, St. Mary's Football Club was, um, you know, they had, um, uh, obviously the Tiwi people would come in town and they had to play with the local football club.

And that was started by the great Ted Egan, who's a singer and songwriter and poet. Uh, Ted was instrumental with that football club. So it's been more than a football club. It's been probably more community and family for us.

At what point did you think to yourself, I can make a go of this, I can make a career out of this? 

Um, Well, it was probably, uh,  I was selected in the Australian, uh, sorry, the, um, 88 bicentennial carnival, which played in Adelaide. So all the States played and  we were in the second level, but a lot of those players are all VFL players back then. We were just from Darwin, local team.  We had probably the only two players that were playing back then was Morris Rioli and Michael McLean.

It was at the Bulldogs and Morris was still at Richmond.  And, um, yeah, it was probably back then in 88 in Adelaide. Yeah.  No one sort of knew who we were and, um, you know, some of the teams didn't want to play against us because they thought we weren't at that level, but we ended up winning the second division anyway. 

But, uh, it's amazing when people, you know, underestimate you, um, but they forgot that a lot of the players were actually related or they played against. We're in season and they actually, we sort of knew each other.  You know, teams were out of season, so, um, which gave us a bit of an edge, but, uh, we sort of knew that, uh, that the respect wasn't there from other guys, even though they were VFL players.

We were probably in awe playing against them, but they didn't respect us, which was one mistake you can make, you know? Yeah.

What about you, JT? When did the light bulb go off?

 Yes, I always had a dream of playing, uh, in the NRL. Like I said, as a kid growing up, um,  big family environment playing rugby league.

So, um, but it wasn't until, um, I got the, probably that first training trial as an 18 year old with the Bulldogs where I started to think, you know, uh, yeah, I can actually a chance of, uh, Making a living out of this, uh, when I finished high school, no club, you know, wanted a bar of me. So, um, that was disheartening, but I think that made me a bit more resilient and more determined to, to prove them wrong, uh, as well.

So I was always, you know, Tarnished with being too small and couldn't tackle and they're probably right. 

But I was just always headstrong. Um, and  my strength was my fitness. Um, no one would outwork me, uh, on the field. And, um, that's how I applied when I, uh, got an opportunity is, um, to outrun everyone, um, out train everyone. And, you know, when I moved to Sydney as an 18 year old, uh, The Jersey flag team was already well and truly settled, um, at that time.

So the only way I was going to break into it was to train the house down and, and that was my strength. So that's what I did. And yeah, once that sort of took off, I moved down on a training trial. Um, washing cars at Pickles Auctions in  Western Sydney. And then, uh, yeah, uh, got a trainee ship and then  they signed me for, you know, a contract, uh, in 2002, a full time contract.

So,  um, yeah, happened extremely quickly for me. Uh, when I finished high school,  yeah, I was devastated because everyone, by the time you finish high school, everyone's on, you know, contracts and training and, um, you know, they got scholarships to go to clubs and things like that. So, well, I didn't have that. So I had to sort of go the long way about it, but, you know, I just love rugby league so much.

You know, I was playing local A grade in Toowoomba at that time before I got. moved down to Sydney with the Bulldogs. So yeah, it wasn't until that moment where you finally get that, that contract where you go, all right, now I've got my foot in the door. How do I get better? And you know, what do I need to do to, you know, build my game to be the best that I can be?

Give us an idea early in your career, obviously not earning a lot of money, right? How much are you thinking about  investing it, using it wisely? Yeah, well for me, um, my first contract was the IDK. Um, in 2002, um, and,  um, my manager said, you know, I was lucky I had good, uh, support network around me with my finances.

And, um, I got a financial advisor straight away and they put me on a weekly allowance. Um, which wasn't much, uh, 300 bucks,  but all my money would go into an account and, uh, all the bills would get paid, uh, from that. So, you know, the rent, um, all that type of stuff, you know, your phone, um, and yeah, you'd get the, the 300 bucks to sort of live off, uh, off that.

Um, so  once you start earning a bit more money, that allowance, uh, weekly allowance went up. But, um, yeah, I was really lucky to have a good financial support network around me. And, um, you know, that I remember that, uh, doing that and, you know, the more money you earned, I suppose the easier you can spend it.

But yeah, I was very lucky in that regard. Not lucky, but, uh, yeah. It was very good for me. Um, you know, like I said, I come from a big family as well. So, you know, I've been able to help, uh, family in different ways, um, as well. So,  you know, that's pretty much part of our culture really is helping family out.

Um, so yeah, that's having that, I've still got that financial advisor still today, uh, controlling my finances. So.  Um, I get a little bit more money now. What about you Michael? The first early days, you're not earning bucket loads of money. How conscious were you of using it sort of wisely? I probably wasn't conscious enough.

Um, I didn't have the greatest education, but um, I think I was more focused on football and trying to make it. Um, and then really didn't focus on the financial side earlier as a kid, cause you're  trying to get in the, into the seniors. And yeah, I suppose then he had to try to adapt to living in Melbourne and the weather and other things.

So, um, to me it was a little bit of a different journey on my financial side. You're young, you think you're a superman, you're there. Um, but lucky I had some real good, um, you know, When I was there, there's still a lot of the 84, 85 guys. So there were older guys there, they had their business. Because it wasn't fully professional, then you could go and work, uh, during the day and you had to be at training, but you didn't get home till about nine o'clock.

So I was probably earning more money, uh, doing me job, uh, actually on the, um, they put me on my first ever job, you know, never been to Melbourne in my life, uh, didn't really.  understand the weather and all this stuff and six o'clock in the morning, you know, you're leaving, you go to your job or earlier, but, um, that was sort of like my welcome to Melbourne.

But  yeah, it was, uh, I didn't think about a lot of that stuff until a bit later on. Um, probably when I had my children, um, cause, uh, I don't know, it wasn't about you as a, individual, you know, you have to obviously then, you know, look out for your kids and plan. And I suppose it wasn't until 95 that, you know, sort of it hit home, you know, it's not about you.

So, um, uh, probably in the early days, I probably spent a lot of it and never really thought about planning for the future and probably I'm playing a bit of catch up, but. Um, probably like along the way, um, as long as you learn from it, you know, and you have good people around you. So I think it's probably 95, I think when my son come to, um, was born around then.

I think that's the key too, is having people around you that, uh, you can trust. Um, because you know, you go from most now, most days now you go from high school straight into a system where you know what, I think, uh, you know, the average age, average income for an NRL player is nearly 400, uh, grand, but for the lower spectrum, I think they're earning still 120.

Like if you're an 18, 19 year old, and in that kind of coin, it's easy to just be able to blow it, uh, as well. So you need people around you that you can trust, um, because we've all heard of those stories where, um, you know, plays have, uh, blown it or they've, you know, made a bad investment and, uh, lost a lot.

So yeah, I think, like you said, you know, um, learning from those experiences, having those people around you to, you know, guide you, because, um, you know. Most  players come from a, um, a low socioeconomic, uh, background as well. Uh, you know, our, uh, you know, I did, uh, growing up in Brisbane and like you mentioned growing up in Darwin and, and, you know, the Tiwi Islands and that.

And here you are thrust into big city life. Like it's a cultural change. It's a massive change. So having those people around you that you can trust and guide you is extremely important. And you don't know everything about, no, like you're only a kid and I'm, I'm focused on my footy rather than,  and you've got to understand how money works.

And, you know, um, it actually can destroy you if you don't use it properly and, and, uh, can be your worst enemy, but that's why it was so important later on, you know, that I had to get that support and help and good people around you to make better decisions. You know, people are smarter than me, um, who understood money,  but, uh, Like, you wouldn't change it for the world what you went through, but you could learn it. 

But, uh, you know, there comes a time and that, that, that was that moment for me, I suppose, with the, the young bloke coming into the world, just, you know, you get  the, the button clicks  upstairs. So, yeah. Who, who are the, have you got any particular influences, financial influences, um, uh, that you can talk about? 

Over the course of that journey?  Yeah, my manager, Sam, uh, you know, he's got a real estate background. Um, so that's where I've invested most of, uh, the money that I've earned, uh, is in. You own half of Townsville, don't you? Can we get a loan, do you know? We're just extended family, it's all good.  But, uh, yeah, so that's, um, yeah.

Where my money's, most of my money's gone. Yeah, I got a small, uh, share portfolio as well, which I keep an eye on, but, um, it's about making your money work for you and how you can get it to work for you. I think in, in property, you know, some people, um, play the short game with it. Or the long game and you know, mine's at the moment is with the long game with it.

So obviously the property market goes up and down, uh, that you can see and you read about it. But, um, yeah, my manager's, uh, been a massive influence on me. And then I suppose, um, Lawrence, Uh, in Townsville as well. Um, and another bloke, Paul, uh, Gideon as well. And they were the, they were part of the, the Stockman crew that the Cowboys picked up, um, which was successful businessmen that they got in around the boys and different, uh, uh, Aspects of, um, of life.

So, you know, um, some own car yards, some are in the property game, uh, some were builders, you know, so if you were looking to build a house, you know, you had that person there that you could go and get advice from and, and things like that. So.  Yeah, I was very lucky in that regard, uh, when I moved to the Cowboys that they had that system already set up.

So if there was any advice that I need and you know, these were, um, middle aged older men that have, you know, successful in their own right in their field. So having that and bounce ideas off was really important to me. And sponsors, you would have had a lot of.  Yeah, exactly. Sponsors advice. And, and, you know, that crew really helped, uh, you know, guide you, um, on, on what you wanted to do with it, with your money.

So yeah, they're still around there up there in Townsville. What about you, Michael? People outside, I guess, footy or that, that influenced you financially? Yeah, we had a board member who was at the Essel Football Club. She owned a few art galleries, um, became, uh, close, uh, friends and then family, as you do.

Um, and then I had a mate who was, um, he was the accountant for the RSL. He was, uh, that's when Bruce Ruxin was head of the RSL back then. Um, and she obviously set us up how it, you know, Should the money should be falling into a foundation on the foundation Indian family trust and setting up and we bought our first house.

I think about a year and a bit after Jake was born. My salary wasn't.  The biggest back then, I think the most I ever got in the end was about 250, 000. Um, uh, probably the last three or four years of my contract, which is, um, wasn't huge money, um, what they're getting now, but, um, the demands on football is even higher than the bubble you live in.

Uh, media and everything else, you know, they, they, um, they deserve that, you know, they deserve that money. I think, uh, for players now, it takes around 450, 000 500, 000. Just a standard contract.  But yeah, they, um, um, as I said, I wasn't an expert in accounting or, um, I suppose that's where I needed that leadership and helping him mature and understand that, hang on, we've got a plan for,  for our kids.

So the trust was set up and we bought our first house, which was fantastic. But, um, like, uh, as you do, you had to have a budget and sometimes you spent a little bit more. You needed to go away on holidays with the family and, um, but, uh, you did have incentives in your contract where you got to do finals or grand finals or, you know, there was different parts or incentive money there, but, um, like, like everything you'd see, I think it's flashy, but Sometimes it's not, you're actually working just as hard to, um, you know, put food on the table like anyone else.

And the demands of football is different because you're emotionally, physically challenged and you come home and people might've thought it was a tough job, but you're like work during the day. And then you wouldn't get home till nine, nine 30, once you finish your weights and your boxing and all that stuff and rubbed down and, and then, you know, you gotta get ready for the next day.

Um, That was just as taxing, but I, I couldn't, I stopped working, but I was actually earning more money than what I was working. But yeah, that was probably, yeah, the start of  putting a bit of a structure behind me, probably 95. How important was that getting some structure behind  your financial life? Oh, really important because they understood it.

I might not have understood it really well, and I'm not good at that detail stuff. And that's where you get those people that you trust and, um, That know what they're doing and they want to help you and they want to look after you. But, um, that was a two way street. And, you know, uh, as we said, we became like family and friends as you do.

And, um, and then, uh,  obviously our second child come along. So, um, we were lucky to buy our second place. I mean, they knew how. The structure of how tax works and, um, how we needed to do it and set it up. Um, obviously not living in that house, but we had to go and live in this one for, for certain reasons and, um, all, all above board and how you, how you utilize that. 

Are there any, are there any pieces of financial advice you might've received or, or something someone said to you over the years that stuck with you that you could share with. other athletes or just people in general, I guess. I think as we were talking before, look, you're going to make mistakes and that's just the reality.

And, um, I think we've heard stories and players and,  and you don't wish that upon anyone. As long as you learn from it and you get  sound advice, good people you can trust, people who are actually there for you, you know, they want you to succeed. And, um, and that works at life. Yeah. Um, but you've got to make sure you dot everything, cross everything.

Um, and no doubt, um, you're actually going to get smarter people to give you advice, you know, stuff that you don't know. And I know what I don't know. And, um, uh, we're all, um, good at that.  and we've got a footy, that's what I could do. But, um, I suppose that's what I've got at that time. Those people in my, um, my corner. 

Yeah. Get a financial advisor. Um, definitely. Cause like I said, you can go from, you know, high school and now, uh, you could be earning, you know, six figures as a 19 year old, so  there's not many to, many 19 year olds in the country that are earning that type of money. So, um, definitely get a financial advisor and try and work out how your money can work from you, for you.

Um, you know, I didn't know much about that. Um, and like you said, as athletes, all you're worried about is  getting your preparation right and making sure you're performing to the high standards that you are so that, you know, come contract time, you're maximizing the amount of income you can get. And, um, you know, I think having someone there that can help guide you, uh, with that.

And,  you know, the average NRL player is 40 games, you know, that's two years. Um, so, yeah. You know, for myself, like I had a 16 year career, but I finished at 35. I've still got another 30 years in the workforce, you know, and yes, I still earned good coin, um, and yes, I've invested my money, but you know, those boys that are starting their careers now, like, um, you're only, uh,  an  injury away from, from an ending.

Um, so.  Yeah, I think getting a financial advisor, um, definitely I would be telling, you know, any sports star to, to do that. Um, yes, it's going to cost you a bit of money to do that, but you know, you, you want these people to make your money work for you. Um, you know, some people leave it in a bank, um, some people put it in shares, some people whatever.

Um, but yeah, definitely  what I've learned is, um, It was about wealth creation, uh, that's what you want. You know, you, you got a family that you need to support, you know, you've got investments, um, you've got home loans, you've got a pay down, all this type of stuff. So, um, how you can, you know, help your wealth, uh, create and how you can maximise that, uh, is really important.

You've got to also, I reckon, because you don't have that, once you step away from the game, you don't, you know,  And, um, I know the lifespan of a, cause the high turnover is about two and a half, three years for players. So especially for those guys who are probably at a low level of income and, um, and I reckon this is where the players association have to be really strong at, um, maybe two days a week or more to have a really strong focus on life after footy.

And cause as John, I've mentioned before, you, you could be done and. One year or two years and, and what do you do? And, and then you got that transition and disappointment and shame of leaving the game. You've been at that high, because there's a high expectation of family and friends and, you know, they look after you.

But that transition when you, when you leave the game, I know I struggled a bit, but, um, just with, uh, that's all I sort of knew. I'd never, never thought about it. I've never really done anything else other than, than footy, but it's amazing what you do know and the skills and no doubt with the people you meet, um, you actually know more than what you do know, but you got to tap into that stuff that you forget and you think about, um,  I'm retired now, what do do I do with myself or what's the next phase?

It's amazing what, what opens up  if you make some, you know, good choices and changes in your life. Because, uh,  uh, I think the football network, the rugby network, I mean, you can go anywhere in Australia and people will know you or there's connections with people. The club or business or it might be a, your old club, but people, um, we want to talk footy and that leads to other discussions.

What are you doing? So, yeah, it's, um,  yeah, I reckon that's where I reckon it's going to come from the players that  there should be more time on for, I know they get paid good money, but they work hard for their money, but there should be a real stronger focus for life after, especially you've got to think about the. 

The guys who probably aren't on the big money as well as the guys who are just coming in. So  they certainly need to take ownership of their finances. Is that the difference between the start of your career and the end of your career? At the start, you're not even, a lot of players don't even think about it, right?

What, where their money is, what they're doing with the money. The last three years of your career or so, you start, You start to think about retirement, what am I going to do, how am I going to use my money, but I guess, I guess the important thing is rather than leaving it to the end, if you do it over the course of your career, then you can set yourself up for life, right?

Yeah, exactly. And that was, um, you know, my.  Last contract was a four year deal and then I added a year on, uh, from that. So that was 2013. And  that's when I started to put things in place, uh, post footy and, um, you know, where I'm going to be, uh, after I retire and, um, you know, like I said, investing well, and  I've got a small share, uh, airline, uh, it's called SkyTrans, uh, in far North Queensland.

And, uh, that was with, uh, a really close mate of mine. Uh, that started the business, sold it and then retook it on in 2014 and having those discussions with him, uh, about, you know, what are you thinking of doing, you know, post footy. Um, and I wanted to live in Townsville, uh, post footy and, and, uh, we had a young family there and, uh, he said, you know, look, I'm going to take this airline back on.

Do you want to jump on board and, and do that? So, um, yeah, it's, Uh, you know, and they're the business decisions that you, that you make and start looking out for. And, you know, I'm, like I said, I don't say I'm lucky. Um, I worked hard for everything. Um, and you know, they're the conversation that we're saying with the people that you, that you trust, um, because, uh, we've all heard those stories where you invest your money in, in something and then boom, it's, it's gone.

Um, because, uh, people can invest. a lot of money of their playing, uh, career into something and then, you know, overnight it could be gone. So, um, yeah, at the back end of your career, you're starting to think,  what am I going to be doing? Uh, where are my finances going? And like I said, if you've got a financial advisor early on, uh, you can start to think Um, you can track your shares, you can see where your money's going, you got a budget of what you need to, you know, spend on, um, rent, fuel, you know, we've got cost of living, uh, through the roof, you know, and our boy, you know, footy players earning a lot of, a lot of money.

So, um, so yeah, that back end of your career, you need to start. Preparing for life after, uh, after footy because like I said, you got another 30, 40 years in the, in the workforce. Um, and yes, I've helped. Set that up, but, um, you know, for those boys that have got the, you know, 20, 40 games in their career, they've still got another long time and to be earning, earning money.

Yeah. And I think once you get on top of that, yeah, actually it all balances out for you and you actually. You know where you're going because you actually got to understand where your money is and, and, uh, you know, control of it. And I think that sometimes we let slip and, um, and now your role, you'd have to be on the board, you talking about the counts, what's ticked off and all that.

Um, and I think if, if you get in control of, it's almost getting in control of your life, you know, football life, your, your, your financial life,  and it's amazing how. Quickly, you can move forward and the opportunities sometimes flow from that because you got your shit together, you know, because you know that you got, I mean, the only person you got to trust is yourself and, you know, and that's where you're going to take control of your life and you got to drive that and that's you got to football and.

Your financial side, you've got to be in control of your life. That's pretty important. Yeah, definitely. Like every tax time, like you're going through, you know, like, uh, how much more have I got of mortgage to pay down, you know, each year, you know, all that type of stuff. So, you know, you're seeing what type of income is coming in and you're seeing what type of income is going out.

So, like I said, it's about, uh, that wealth creation. And I think that's, you know, really important for. Uh, footy players is to start thinking about, you know, what am I going to do post footy? One of the, one of the things that Kevin Cheaty always said,  you know, uh, come into this club, I want you to walk away with a house, at least a house.

And, um, um, I said, Kip, I need your house. You know, I can't afford it now, but, um, but he was always thinking about, you know, as coaches, they're, they're more than just coaches. They're, they're, they're fathers. They, you know, um, No matter, um, because I caught up with Kevin the other day, you know, their father figures.

So they, they want you to do well, you know, not just in your footie. So, um, cause they've got grannies and everything else. So, um, no, no, no. Over time, you know, Kevin's still involved with the football club. He still keeps in contact with these players. How are you going? You know, what are you doing? Are you going okay?

You know, um, and that's a lifelong thing. So, and that was one of the messages you always said, you know, I want you to leave here with a house, at least a house, you know.  Well, that's a good note to end it on. Some advice from Sheeds, you can't beat that. So thanks to JT. Thanks to Michael for joining us and stay tuned for the next episode of Athletes Journey, winning on and off the field soon.