Introducing "Athlete's Journey - Winning On & Off The Field" a special podcast series looking at the financial journey of athletes through the eyes of some of Australia’s most influential sporting figures.

Hosted by Brent Read, episode 3 features CEO of Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs, Aaron Warburton & CEO of Sydney Roosters, Joe Kelly, providing insight into how NRL players manage their finances from the perspective of a CEO. Listen to how these players became involved in the cryptocurrency and NFT world.

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Hello and welcome to the third episode of Athletes Journey, winning on and off the field, a special podcast series on the financial journey of athletes through the eyes of some of Australia's most influential sporting figures. I'm Brent Read and today I'm joined by Canterbury Bankstown Bulldogs CEO Aaron Warburton and Sydney Roosters CEO Joe Kelly.

How are you guys?

Good morning. Very good. Thanks for having us. We might as well start with a bit of a brief introduction, a brief, uh, summary of how you got to where you are today. Uh, do you want to kick us off, Aaron? Yeah, uh, I've been involved in rugby league for a couple of decades, which is, uh,  hard to actually say out loud, knowing that, um, there's been some good years, some tough years, some really good years.

So I started in 2002 with the Eel's straight out of school as a young sort of apprentice working my way through the administrative side of rugby league. Um, whilst I studied along the way, um, to end up at the Bulldogs first time around in 2010, as head of commercial, did that for a number of years before starting my own sports management, marketing businesses, uh, and then to come back as CEO in 2021.

So three seasons at the helm and it's been one heck of a ride. Yeah, you can probably tell by appearances really. I've been around a long while in sport. Um, go back a little further now, but similar, um, 1995, started the North Sydney Bears in their finance team. I was a, I was a finance department of one. Uh, did five years there, including the move to the central coast where, where we were.

We built the Central Coast Stadium, um, went into the joint venture, Norse Manly, Waratahs for a stint after that, then across to the UK where I was a CFO at Chelsea for five years. Back to Australia,  eight years at the Rabbitohs, um, then onto Manly for a couple as a CEO, and then now six years at the Roosters.

So I've been a sort of CEO of a club for the last eight years and prior to that was a sort of finance-related roles. You're both in the game a long time and the game's changed a lot. In that time, particularly from a financial viewpoint, there's a lot of money in rugby league now. Can you give us an idea here about that change, uh, in terms of not just for footy clubs, but I mean, the amount of money players earn now is.

It's just astronomical. Yeah. And look, it's the old allegory of, um, the more you make, the more you spend. I've seen that consistently through footy and at any given point in time, there's a lot of money going around in the game. And yeah, I've seen, I've seen it change, but in terms of it, has it been more sophisticated?

Potentially. Um, there's always been smart people around our game offering the right advice, the wrong advice and everything in between. So it's a tricky space. And Joe, you'd probably seen it from a bit earlier in the days too. Yeah. Like I think. Yeah, the clubs didn't have a real active role in, you know, players and they're, you know, number one, probably even welfare, let alone financial, um, advice, those sorts of things.

But, yeah, I sort of look at it probably from 95, where the, you know, good player managers. looked after their players well and probably did really well as a consequence of that. Uh, and then, yeah, you've seen an evolution over the last probably 10 to 12 years, um, in our game with, um, both NRL taking a much more active role in ensuring players are well educated, first of all, uh, which, which they are.

Uh, and secondly, uh, planning for careers and planning for their financial future as well. So when you first started in the game, I assume  Players were given, given barely any, if, if any financial advice. No, you know, and being involved in a finance role in a club, I can't recall ever really sitting down with a player and, and having any such discussions.

Um, you know, and, and now you see where the evolution is, where we've got actually, you know, specialists in this area embedded within our organizations as career coaches, et cetera. Uh, the NRL, uh, And RLP are running really robust programs, uh, around, you know, financial literacy for players, uh, you know, everything from, you know, mortgages, equities, uh, cryptocurrency, even information around that.

So it can help support players in making decisions. And, you know, education, like we've still got about 25 percent of our NRL players across the code are actually still engaged in some form of education or work outside of playing NRL football. And below that, at 20s and below, you must, you must study, you must work or otherwise you don't play.

Is it, is it, is it a line you've got to walk a little bit? As a club because you've obviously got a salary cap. You've got to abide by the certain rules around financial, uh, financial advice you can give, but  how you can be involved in players finance. So I assume you've got to. Yeah. It's trying to understand that who's responsibility is.

And I think a number of different stakeholders around the player needs to own their responsibility. their piece, whether that's all the way back to school and educating them. Um, there's what financial literacy is, what investments look like. But I guess there's a game and a club. We can be better. Um, just trying to work out where and how and balancing.

These guys are professional athletes. Everything is all in on on their trade and that is rugby league. So it's just trying to find when and how, because information Um, you know, presented at the wrong time, isn't going to sink in, presented at the right time with the right narrative around that. And look, it's individual.

You've got a bunch of 30-odd guys.  who take in information differently, who are at different stages of their, their life. Um, let alone how tired they are at the end of the day, the start of the day, how well they slept. There's so many factors that go into sort of educating, but again, whose role is, is educating the player.

I've always been quite conscious, you know, even though I've sort of got a financial background, I know my Limitations in terms of where I can sort of go to with players and, you know, I'm not a licensed, you know, financial planner, et cetera. So, I'll limit my discussions to, you know, steering them in the right direction internally, um, to our specialist in that space or, or back through RLPA NRL.

Um, you know, you're not offering products and services to them, but you, you're there to help them, you know, do simple things like budget, you know, um, Yeah, Aaron talked about it before, you know, it's, it's, it's all about, you know, how you, how you can save as well, though the money's enormous now. So your, your, your, your ability to actually save is, is important.

So I think, yeah, we can have a very general approach to it, but ultimately, yeah, you need to then pass that over to others that, you know, have that sort of level of expertise and, um, yeah. And so the players go from there. The money's enormous, but probably the risk's enormous as well because they can lose a lot of money if they make the wrong choices.

And I would assume that would, it has a potential impact how they play, how they train.  Do you guys have to be aware of that if they're playing? You know, players may be making some wrong choices financially, and it's affecting their performance. I think it's like every, every single one of us, you know, in life, you know, if you've got distractions, you, you know, you're not going to perform to the best of your ability in whatever your chosen career.

So, and financial, um, Outcomes that aren't positive, uh, will definitely lead to that. I know that financial stress is a, is a significant, you know, um, impact on, on anyone's, um, you know, ability to function to the best of their ability. So, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, you know, you, and that's where knowing your players, you know, having others in the organization that are close to them as well.

Um, so you can sort of see any of those sorts of effects isn't interesting though. You look at the cross-section of players. Anyone from a 17-year-old to a 33, 34 year old, very different. That, that sample of players, um, and the, the money they're earning, the lifestyle they want to live versus where they need to be versus trying to get them out of the mold of, you know, that's their rugby league career versus a  hopefully a life of 80, 90 years and probably not going to earn.

You know, that income, have the disposable income, but like anything, people make mistakes and sometimes the mistakes are your best way to learn too. It's not a one size fits all thing, right? That's right. You're right. And I think the approach is. So that's probably where there needs to be improvement and hence why I don't know if it's a club owned or an NRL owned.

I think it's a good discussion point. But the game, the game has taken a lot more responsibility in that area. Not so much clubs to an extent, but the game itself, right, has taken. Yeah, they have. Can you compare the. For financial advice, maybe the game gave players  30 years ago to what it does now. Oh, it's just, it's so different.

Like, as I say, I don't recall any real advice being, uh, um, provided at that point in time. Now it, you know, now we've got, you know, a number of people internally that actually work in this space. Um, you know, You know, in a permanent capacity, and then on top of that, you've got, you know, external providers coming in and offering that sort of independent advice.

That's not actually, okay, invest in this or invest in that it's, it's more about upskilling players. I'm giving them the tools to understand, you know, what are potentially pitfalls, you know, so there's lots of risk, more money, you got lots of risks, uh, attached to that too. So giving them sort of, uh, the necessary, um, tools to, you know, sort of be able to navigate through, you know.

that sort of cycle. But, you know, I look at it, the fact that a player's, you know, sort of life as a player career is fairly, fairly short. And so this is their first career. So setting them up for what's going to be a much longer second career is significantly important. The game itself has taken a very active role in that, which is really good.

And the club's got right behind it. The other aspect of that is the world changes constantly, right? You always, you mentioned crypto before.  10 years ago no one knew what it was. So there's this, and the players, some players can see that as a quick sugar hit, right? So it's important that they keep getting educated on that sort of thing and the perils of it.

Correct. I think, and like Joe was talking about there, there's the players are again a cross-section of society. I think a number of people, um, myself included, got swept up in, in what was crypto, what was NFTs and everyone was Googling, you know, the next big thing. And it comes down to, I guess, your risk, but also your level of education.

If you've got, um, research as a key driver as to how you invest in, you know, one out of 10, you're probably going to stay away from crypto.  If you're a 10 and you live sort of life and a lot of these players have, you know, taken risks in their career just to, you know, get back on the field or, you know, they'll miss certain things to excel in their field.

They're pretty risk adverse guys and girls now. So it's, um, it is tricky and I think it's a, it's a pretty cluttered marketplace when it comes to advice where everyone's got it. Um, but in terms of where the trust lies and, you know, who. It's reputable enough from a club's perspective to be recommended to a player.

Um, like I said, it's a bit of a,  it's, it's unknown in the sense it's been happening for quite a while, but look, it's, it's, you're working with 600 players. I don't think there's a, there's one, one method. I was going to say, what's really interesting already is that you look at the statistics of surveys they do with our players and that,  uh, and recently that, yeah, their post career is obviously pretty good.

You know, top of, you know, the rankings in terms of what they're focused on, uh, you know, after their football career, but coming a very close second and sort of all intertwined anyway is just financial planning. So, players are really focused on, you know, getting that advice now, um, so they can set themselves up for the future.

So, it's, it's, it, we've moved a long way. The whole tide's risen enormously around just education and, uh, and all those sorts of things that, you know. Yeah, well, hopefully, um, most players, um, will stand them in good stead into the future. Well, I think the smart players, and correct me if I'm wrong here though, footy clubs tend to be surrounded by smart, savvy financial people these days, and the smart players know, know how to tap into those people for advice, right?

You know, um, because the way the game has exploded financially, there's people around it who have  Successful people who've made a lot of money and if you're a smart football player, you can go to them for advice or talk to those sort of people. Yeah, we see, and again, that hasn't changed over time. I think what's coming a bit more of a trend now is that type of copycat investing.

If you're seeing something work for someone that's close to you and there's trust and you build a nice relationship, you can follow that in terms of that investment. That's a pretty straightforward system. However, it's, it's who's around you. Um, who's advising you, who's got any vested interest, which let's be honest, there might be a bit of that floating around.

So it's, it's a, um, yeah, rugby league clubs tend to attract, uh, like-minded people that the top percentile of them, yeah, make a heap of money. Do, do you guys take pride in seeing a player  look, uh, financed? Going to do something with his money and become a success. Like, do you take a personal interest? Can you afford to do that?

Take a personal interest in it? Absolutely. I, you want to see everyone sort of, you know, succeed and achieve. And, um, you know, this career is a fairly short career, as I said. And, and one of the biggest challenges is, is replicating this level of remuneration moving forward. So, you know, that's something that's  difficult to solve.

There's certainly a number of individuals that I go off into, you know, roles within the game, et cetera, and, and do very well. But, you know, you'd say the majority are finding another, another source of employment. So to actually be able to do that and, and, and, and anywhere near their current level in some cases is, is, is a real challenge.

So yeah, I absolutely agree with that. Yeah. You see, you'll often hear stories about players buying their first house or, or buying a house for their parents, which I may imagine is as a person who's in charge of a full muster. Paypack. And when you hear that sort of story, it's rewarding, particularly with the rest of the playing squad, right?

People see and they can believe and they can achieve it themselves. And it doesn't often happen where a player, you know, it might be their first contract they're able to with their income. But normally comes with a plan, you know, in three years, I want to be able to, or five years, I want to be able to.

And to Joe's point, yeah, in 10 years, I want to be able to have a recurring income that can sustain my lifestyle and my family's. Or future families lifestyle. And there's so many unknowns, that's the key. So, if something's worked in the past, that's, that's, yeah, you're half a chance. Yeah, and we talk about, you know, those around the club and us, you know, sort of providing support and those internally that are experts in this space, but probably that locker room chat.

It's probably the most important chat, um, that's probably where the influence really sits as well. So seeing someone, you know, do well in that space, um, probably does, you know, leave others, you know, sort of thinking about their own futures a lot more and what they can do about it as well. Unfortunately, that locker room chat last year before was crypto.

Yes,  it was the quick wins. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, footballers are, you're right, they're very like minded people, right? So, um, what's the old saying? If one, one gets a cold, if one sneezes, everyone catches a cold. Yeah, exactly. So, it's important you footy club who you can lead, basically. Yeah, that's right. 

Both of you guys have, I think, got those sort of guys in the footy club, so you rely on them a little bit as well. Yeah, and in the coaching team and the alumni that sit around them. And you hear the old stories of players, you know, they might move from a 100, 000 contract straight to a four or five. And it's like, well, you were living quite well on 100, 000.

What are you going to do with the extra 400? Should that go directly into a savings account? Should that be, um, you know, only touched in five years, high interest earning, whatever it is. Um, but like I said, you make more, you tend to spend more. Um, and that's, you know, you've earned that, so you should be able to sort of increase your lifestyle in and around that and, but in saying that. 

Um, everyone, you know, has their own goals and if that's looking after people around you or whatever it is and you've got to sort of be,  you've got to account for that. But in saying that this, um, the increase in salary isn't going to slow down, the caps just increase. You give it four or five years, it's going to go up again.

Uh, there's going to be the same people around giving the same advice. It's probably worth looking at that because of the caps now about 11. 4, the average wage is about, I  think it's around nearly 400, 000 now. And the minimum. So that goes up to 120. Um, and that's a, that's a big jump for a lot of young kids at a young age.

It's a 50 percent jump on the minimum wage alone. So yeah, it's significant. But the average career, I think the average career is only  a few years, three or four years, right? So, um, you know, it's important that players make good decisions when they're, when they're earning that sort of money or in their career.

And you gotta, you go into, I guess, a football career knowing that it is three to four years, but you, you're always thinking it's going to be 10 plus. Um, but using, you know, if that drives you behind the scenes, it says this could end at any given point and having those systems in place. Um, and look, easier said than done.

These guys are committed to titles and, and being the best version of themselves while they can. And you'd never take that away from them, but Joe said it earlier, you see some of the best results when guys are in a, a nice financial space, they're comfortable, there's not as many distractions or, or threats around them, so.

I assume that's something you've got to remind them of. It will,  it would be a bit of a balancing act because they've got this, footballers think they're indestructible, they've got this great belief they're going to play forever, but you're right, the average crease. I think it's two, three, four years. Is that something that gets?

That they get reminded of? Well, I've seen situations where you've seen players, you know,  have ended their careers, come back and actually have these chats too, you know. So I think there is a reminder there, you know, and uh, and sometimes a quite current reminder of someone who's just retired from the club.

Now,  Players are quite open at times about, you know, their own, their own journey, their own journey from, you know, the time they arrive at a club as a kid, 16, 15, whatever it is, right through to the end of their first great career. And, and yeah, we do use that. Um, you know, we've in ourselves, you know, at the Roosters, we've got, you know, an academy and, you know, we've got, you know, Mitch Orbison heading that up and, you know, Jake Friend's involved as well.

And, and yeah, Part of that is, is those guys telling their story of how they've, you know, started at the Roosters and went all the way through and played their careers at the Roosters. And that's powerful. It's powerful, you know, because they're recently retired and, and those, those messages, I think, you know, more, more so than coming up and sitting down in the CEO's office and, you know, talking about budgets and things like that.

Um, it's, it's actually talking to your peers and, you know, and those players they would have looked up to as well. Do you think, is there a gap at the moment in the game or a weakness in terms of that financial, is there something you think maybe the game could do better on that front? I'm pretty happy.

Sorry Aaron, I'm pretty comfortable personally where things are at.  I think the game is doing a really good job. I think everyone in the game is doing a really good job. I don't really see too much of a weakness. As I say that the biggest challenge will be for players to really. Yeah, prepare themselves, uh, the majority of them for what's a possibly a significant change in, in income, you know, post, post football.

Yeah, I think the, uh, and again, it's been happening for decades is at what point, um, in a player's career, do you really need to flick the switch around, you know, what you're going to do after football and you got guys in their early 20s who know they might have a trade, they're working on the weekends, they've got aspirations to have their own business, um, it's such a unique individual journey for a lot of these athletes and as a game, to Joe's point, overarching.

There's a, there's a nice sort of flavor to what is financial literacy, and at least having those tools around them. A couple of times a year, the players will get together. We, um, we ran a financial literacy course separate to the NRLs last year for anyone under 23.  So we had everyone that was probably about, um, 11, 12 in the room.

Our CFO got up and actually broke down the salary. So from 150K, um, take away your agent fee, take away the GST and the agent fee. Take away the tax, this comes down, that's what you're getting per week. And he sort of ended that with anyone that wants any more information, you know, book a meeting and probably half of them said, we want to know more.

And it was, that's the basics of a payslip,  right? But that hadn't been educated to  them in the past. And if you think back to your school years, you're 11 and 12, unless you were into commerce and you wanted to be, you know, open your own investment firm, you probably just, you breezed over that one. And that's, that's majority of our players.

Is that an ongoing thing you think you'll, you'll do? Yeah, that'll be an annual thing now. Yeah, it was just, it was John's initiative internal to say, look, I get too many questions on this. I'm going to pull them all together. And we're going to, you know, get some questions going. It was very quiet early, as you can imagine.

And towards the end, and then even, you know, as I said, after the event,  it was a number one seller. It was an eye opener for them. It was. It was just understanding that it's, um, you know, and particularly if you're budgeting, if you've got 150K and you're budgeting to 150, but that's not in your bank account, obviously, but it's not that obvious.

What about a bit of financial advice or a pearl of wisdom that you've got? Guys will personally be given over the years so you can share. I think we've touched on it before a few times, Aaron has, you know, certainly, um, is it just around, you know, and you've said too, really, like, salaries are escalating, you know, in the game significantly, and we'll, every five years, we'll hit a new high point, you know, there'll be another history making.

CBA. Um, just through this one, but through the nature of the broadcast deal, we are hopefully being optimistic. It'll always be a record, a record CBA. Um, if done, um, I think that, you know, one of the pieces of advice I got early days was it's not what you earn. It's what you save.  Um, so just being really responsible around saving and then that nothing's easy.

Nothing's easy. Money doesn't come easy. So don't go down that path of what you think's the easy act. I don't know whether crypto sits into that space or not. I never got into it. I really need to have that education because I don't understand it still myself.  But ultimately, you know, you know, be very conscious and that's where the tools are being provided to the players now around those sorts of, you know, riskier types of investments.

So you know, money doesn't come easy. That's a myth. Mine's quite simple too, in the sense that, um, any of my investments over, over the years have been based on something I've been comfortable with, something I know. Something I've been able to research myself. You're never going to have a completely risk-adverse,  um, strategy at any given time.

But if you don't enjoy property investing or you don't understand the share market,  don't touch it or touch it with maybe 10 percent of your investment strategy. I think for me, it's been understanding what makes property rise and the cycles and just actually looking at data previously.  Those things aren't too complicated.

But I don't think you need to scratch the surface any more than that to actually delve into any particular investment. So if you're just listening to someone with no inclination, then you probably only have yourself to blame if it doesn't go well. So I wouldn't be putting any money into anything that I don't at least have a comfortable level of understanding of.

Well, that's some great advice to finish on. Uh, thanks, Aaron. Thanks, Joe. And stay tuned for the next podcast soon. Thank you.